253 | Producing a Hit Studio Movie: What Writers Should Know ft. Sheila Hanahan Taylor (Final Destination: Bloodlines)

Fresh off the massive critical and commercial success of FINAL DESTINATION: BLOODLINES, friend of the show Sheila Hanahan Taylor is back to share the ins and outs of producing a studio movie. What can writers do to develop a good relationship with a producer? How does a producer serve both the studio's voice and the writer's voice? On today's episode, Sheila unpacks it all!

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT:

Meg LeFauve: Hey, welcome back to The Screenwriting Life. I'm Meg LeFauve. Today we're joined by one of our favorite returning guests and my friend producer Sheila Hanahan Taylor Taylor. Sheila's newest film Final Destination: Bloodlines is the latest in the iconic horror franchise, and it's already a favorite of both critics and audiences.

She's been part of this franchise since the beginning, alongside her producing partner, Craig Perry, and she's here to pull back the curtain on what it actually means to produce a studio movie. From collaborating with the writer to shaping the story and tone to balancing the creative with the commercial, I can't wait.

It's gonna be super fun. Sheila, welcome back to the show. 

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: I'm so honored to be invited back. This is one of my favorite ways to spend my morning. So thank you.

Meg LeFauve: Whoa. Let's see if you say that at the end of the show. Ha. Well, okay, so first we're gonna do, if you remember, Adventures in Screenwriting, or how was your week?

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: Yes. 

Meg LeFauve: So, I'll start because yours of course will be better and just bring us right into the show. So, you know, I'm in that point of rewriting a draft with my writing partner. Whenever you're rewriting or even just barf drafting usually around somewhere in two B, as you get close to the end of act two, there's always this moment when you're like, wait, what is this about again?

What, what are we doing emotionally, thematically, what's happening? Because you've had so many balls in the air and new ideas have come up as you've written, and suddenly you think you're writing thematically, emotionally that she's having this arc and you're like, isn't that what we're doing? Because didn't we start over here?

It's just such a part of the brain process that happens. And I just wanted to share that's where I am. Because that sometimes I think emerging writers think that means they're not a good writer, and when in fact it is just part of the process. I, it happened in every Pixar movie, every draft, always. At some point somebody raises their hand and goes, wait, wait, what is this about again?

Why emotionally is she here? What is her problem? You know? So, and then it's actually hard when you hit this and your brain is already tired as a writer because you've been having so many balls and plots and set pieces and great parts for actors and all that stuff. So, my brain is tired as I'm hitting it, but in a weird way that's helpful because it just, you have quicker access to your emotions, the.

Kind of intellect isn't up affect you because you're so tired. So you're just kind of starting to look at, oh, oh this character is this part of me and I don't, you know what, I think this whole thing I threw in isn't, it doesn't belong in this movie. It's just emotionally something that came up in my life and suddenly I, I had this great idea about some emotional thing that happened to her and what her problem is, but in fact that's not this movie.

That's what was happening in my life and I have to kind of be honest and true with the instincts that are coming up. And yet just kind of get back to what is the plot of Act two in terms of why is that, how is that pulling into her deeper core and her shifts and her arc like, because that's how I always know if I've gone off track because of something in my own life that's happening because, and this is how my writing partner helped me yesterday.

Even though it was very dangerous for him to do because I was very emotional because I was tired. And he was like, yeah, that's beautiful what you're saying. But that's not our act too. That's not our plot. Our plot isn't digging into that. So we're just kind of laying it on the top now. And if we go back and look at the plot engine and the archetypes we have, it's very clear that this is what she's dealing with.

because I just sprinkled this other thing through the whole script and dig into what is there, right? So it's just an interesting thing that happens when your brain. Emotionally dealing with other things and it starts to come up into your script and you have to be kind of disciplined about it. Alright, Sheila, how was your week?

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: Well, drafting off that for a second though. The thing that is so true about that is it, I think it's your brain trying to make sense of a through line, right? Because your, you're one part of your brain is really sorting that in real life. And so suddenly, as your brain is I'm just trying to sort this here.

Oh, but I can lay it on top of this thing over here too, because that's already got a framework. And that might even help me sort it. Like we run into this constantly, even as producers, we do it as well. It's not just writers who are tired, but producers are trying to crack something. And before you know it, somebody's throwing in their drama and like you can see it, you can see it, you know enough about their personal life.

You're like, oh no, you're throwing us off course, but how do we gently? because you're the producer and you're the big boss, how do we tell you? Maybe, maybe steer left a little more and…

Meg LeFauve: Yeah, like it's like your sister called and yelled at you. But this is not a problem in the script.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: And, and it, you know, it.

I feel hard. It's hard for writers. because again, you're emotional when you're working alone. But imagine it's six people in a room. Now someone who's not your gentle, loving writing partner now just somebody has to like bus bust you on it a little bit. And that's the bigger the room, the more awkward it gets. So…

Meg LeFauve: It's, oh, it's so true. And, and, and it's so hard to recognize it because I, it took literally hours of a conversation with my writing partner because I felt so strongly about this idea for her character and that what she believes about herself, and look, the antagonist is saying this and it, and I just was, but the plot wasn't doing that.

The whole mechanism was not set. He kept saying, but it's not anywhere else. It's not what our plot is doing. Now, I do think we'll find out next week. My brain is intuiting that we haven't gone deep enough. And yes, it threw in the wrong thing. It really did because it's not right. But the fact that it wanted to throw something in, I do have to respect.

And for this draft, I'm just gonna leave it like it's this, it's this particular arc because that's what the plot is. But I'm gonna guess there's something underneath that we could dig out. But for now I'm gonna leave it. Alright. Sheila, your week.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: So my week, so our week has, my week has been weird because since we had a movie come out, obviously now everybody is hoping to draft off that and I'm getting 9 million scripts sent to me.

So I've been really deep diving refamiliarizing myself with old friends who have new scripts coming out or some up and coming writers people are hoping I get familiar with. And it's been really interesting because. These are scripts that are ready for the world. So they've already been vetted, they've already had writers' rooms play around, like writers' groups play around.

They've already, you know, put it in a drawer, forgotten about it. And, and now it's time, it's their debut and it's I feel like I'm acting, you know, hard on them. But the reality is, it's even though we've all done this giant marathon to get the script ready for the world, now I have to carry it for the next part of the marathon.

So I'm running through this crazy list of sure, of course the characters through line is pretty darn solid. And yeah, the theme that they're hoping to unpack is, is kind of there. I mean, it could use some work, but I get what they're doing and it's a tight script and I'm flying along reading it. I keep turning the page, but now my brain is saying what buyers are out there, what directors can I get to that are gonna be fabulous and interesting? How can I get some studio executive right now in this climate to be excited about it, to take a risk and go into their boss and say this is the one you need to read this weekend, not the other four.

So weirdly, I'm, I'm adding like a whole new layer of metrics to everything that I am reading right now and harder than ever because everyone's looking at us saying, oh, you have a movie that's doing quite well, so you obviously know what you're doing. So can you do that again? Right, right. Can you do the back flip again, please?

So it's, it's been really interesting, but a load of fun on the flip side because. Since we're, since we've been doing this so long, my partner and I, luckily we aren't just getting straight up horror movies, which is so fun. So I'm reading a lot of everything, which has been terrific. So that's been my week, honestly, and I'm back to my, well, what I hear

Meg LeFauve: Well, what I hear you saying from a writer's point of view is that often producers or studio execs can pass.

And that doesn't mean it's a bad script. It doesn't mean we do. Yes. You haven't done all the work. Yes, yes, yes. It literally means it's a, it's not the peg that they need right now. Like they don't, they can't put the math together now. There's story math and then there's math to getting a movie made.

Correct. And it just sometimes, you know, it doesn't, I think we all take it so personally. Mm-hmm. But it doesn't necessarily mean that, I mean, it could, but it doesn't necessarily mean that

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: No, it doesn't necessarily at all. And that's where, you know, you hear all these producers who are like, oh my god, if I spent my whole day passing on all the scripts, I would never get anything else done.

But that's why we emotionally feel compelled to try to track down as many as we can and let them know it wasn't the script, it's the business model. Right, right, right. Yeah, no, it's, it's, it's really hard. But on the flip side, I don't wanna dwell too much on that because this is a writing podcast. And my big thing is, is I talk to too many writers who are reminding me there's a devil and an angel on each shoulder.

And the devil is trying to game the studio math while they're just trying to write a good script. And for me, it's like you've gotta keep that devil in a box for a while and, and do the writing as best as your brain and your heart and your energy can deliver. because it's the producer's job to be the devil on your shoulder, not the writer.

And that's, that gets harder and harder as you get more savvy, right? Because you've heard enough reasons why people pass. You've had enough meetings, you've met enough people, and suddenly you're trying to forecast and prognosticate something that is so out of your control.

Meg LeFauve: And I think, don't you think that the way I kind of approach it, and you can burst my bubble here, but I believe that if it is emotional enough, it is so much of yourself in there in terms of.

You love it and it, and it has all those other layers, but it emotionally is starting to resonate. Sometimes that producer, even though they know the math is hard right now, will still do it because they can't stop thinking about it. It touched them, like this is the one. So to me that's the only way, only control you have over that external story.

Math is, it's just so powerful in its genre, in its emotion that you still take it on. Or am I totally wrong?

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: Oh, no, no. I wanna raise your bubble up higher. Yes, that's exactly why. No bursting of the bubble. Let's elevate the bubble. No, it's, it's true. Like I constantly have that conversation with myself saying, because don't forget like this.

This whole business is sort of designed around. Bartering and trading and favors and hot tips and all that good stuff, at least from the producer side. So a big part of my conversation with myself is, well, I love the writing and I love the voice and I'm emotionally on track. So I'm definitely excited to share this with the executive, even though 99.999%, this does not fit, you know, whatever studio, whatever streamer's model.

But I'm excited to share this writer with them. So I'll, I'll use my little political capital. I have to share that script. Absolutely. Like I'll do that. And guess what, it might have been the crazy Monday morning meeting where somebody in that staff meeting said I need a movie about, you know, skateboarders.

And suddenly my weird little crazy jaw is gonna land. You never know. So half of a producer's brain is also you have to find the producer who's willing to roll the dice and be that, that person who loves going to Vegas and saying I believe enough in this. I'm gonna put, you know, 500 down on black.

I'm gonna do it.

Meg LeFauve: And then even for the writer, it helps because then it's a chip for you because the exec's not for me, but I love the writing. Thank you for letting me meet this writer. Chip for the writer. Yeah. Because now they're like, who are you? Come in and meet me. Tell me other, other ideas. So that's all Great.

All right, so here's my first official question because I, you know, okay, you and I could just chat all day, all day, all day. So, Jeff had a really good place idea of where to start, which is, especially for our emerging writers, I know that our pro writers listening might know this, but hey, she might have a different point of view on it.

What does it really mean to produce a studio movie? Not an indie movie, not a, like a studio, full on studio movie. For you as a producer, like in terms of your process, where you get involved, the challenges, what you love about it.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: So the best way that I describe what a studio producer does or someone who produces studio type material, and today I would add that includes most of the streamers.

Let's roll that all into one. It's sort of anybody who has a guaranteed distribution model and is sort of a built-in finance system, married together. So financing and distribution together make in the old days of studio. But today you could add streamer to that. That's my definition. Right. So also, just to sort of tee this up, I don't work specifically for Warner Brothers new line, Netflix, apple.

I go project by project. I find my library and I hunt around for things I love because I'm gonna have to be willing to slay those dragons and live with it for. You know, the average is seven years, right? So a huge part of my job is just reading and hunting for things I love and things that I know that I'd be willing to wake up next to every day for seven years, and I have a producing partner.

So obviously we have to be aligned on what we see as far as does it crack us both up? Does it make us both scared? Are we both crying at the same spot? All of those key things, but also that we can see a path forward. So as we decide, yeah, we love it. There's at least a few places out there who have the kind of money and the kind of distribution model that would service this project, because sometimes you have a $15 million movie, sometimes you have a $5 million movie, sometimes you have a half million dollar movie.

Like it depends how many places out there. I always describe it as like how big is the bullseye that you're trying to hit? And from a selfish place, any producer wants the biggest bullseye possible because that means there's that many more resources out there. There's that many places to find money.

There's that many. Spots that somebody could put it on their release schedule, all of those things. So we take all that into mind. And then the process is, is not at all straightforward, but like weirdly straightforward all in one. It's very, it's, it's super conflicting. Essentially. A huge part of my job, aside from reading, is paying attention to what every streamer or studio is making.

Meaning where are they having good luck? Where are these executives fighting The good fight, you know, is this a studio that's getting more well known for award winners? Is this a streamer that's more well known for rom-coms or action movies? Because as I'm gathering my library, I'm trying to feel out, oh, this, this script I love, this feels kinda like a screen gems movie or, oh wait, this is really interesting.

I think this, this, this feels like Apple. I need to walk this into Apple. So I'm, I'm tracking sort of a taste meter. And, and it has nothing to do sometimes with budget. It literally is just who over there is going to continue the fight that I'm doing and fight harder inside? And I'm from the outside delivering it to them.

So as I, as I, you know, suss out which executive is gonna be madly in love with my project, I, you know, bring it to them. I tell them my vision, meaning I have access to these five directors. And you also just finished making movies with these other 10 directors. Between that list of 15, I think we have someone in that list who would do amazing job telling the story.

So I generally try to get a script somewhere before I run around and get a director, get actors, all that stuff. And in independent world, that's the opposite. You know, usually you're tracing and getting that whole package together as soon as you can. However, in 2025, now the climate is really all about who's directing.

So five years ago I could probably run around with nobody attached and just me and my little script and take it to some sort of buyer and they would. Decide if they wanted to be in business more with me as the shepherd and my producing partner, and we would get on with it. But now it's no, no, no.

We need to know who the director is. Also shepherding this because actors are all about which directors they wanna work with. So before you even knock on the door of any sort of streamer studio these days, you need to find a director. So that's a whole nother part of the job is like running around, making friends with all those agents who represent those directors, watching a ton of stuff and figuring out where those directors are in their career and if this is the sort of thing they would like to do next, what they wanna explore, all of that.

So then let's pretend we've got a director. We've got a studio who's interested, we've got an executive now. We begin the sort of the long game of, they've probably got 40 or 50 things in development in internally. And how do I make mine stand out? So that just begins with a phase two. So I could keep talking, but I don't know if you wanna break it up or how do you

Meg LeFauve: Well, lemme ask.

Lemme ask. Okay. So let's say you've taken on a project, you see enough in there and you love it enough and you the bullseye is big enough. Yeah. Again, to our writers, it doesn't mean you're small bullseye thing doesn't have a home. It just means where, what producer's looking for what at what time. So don't not write your small bullseye thing, but you found a project you guys have decided as partners, this is the one big enough bullseye.

We love it. They used to give the writer notes, they go off and they write, they come back. Now this is a producer coming back to the producer, not the studio. So it's not even officially the step. What are you hoping for in that draft? Because, you know, as a producer it's not gonna be everything that, these are layer cakes and it's gonna take a lot of time to get every single thing humming.

But what do you really need, at least for that first draft coming into you? What are you looking for from, from that?

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: This is a great question. So early stages as we're building our layer cake and we are trying to stand out at the studio or at the streamer amongst the 40 or 50 other things that they're kind of equally excited about.

So the thing that I continue to look for as we build my layers is we need to continually declare that this is a movie, meaning the things that I am chasing for from the, from the buyer's perspective is can I piece together a marketing campaign? Can I piece together a trailer that has those moments? And am I delivering something that in all the 40 or 50 other things they've got going feels like its own?

Really beautiful, cool version of that because most executives are gonna roll the dice and have five or six romantic comedies, three or four thrillers, four or five action movies. Like they're, they're babysitting a lot of little growing plants, right? Everything needs some water. They're waiting to see which one sprouts.

And you just wanna be like, no, no, no. See, I have this plant, you have a Rose Bush already. You have a cactus already. You've got a lily. But I, I have the orchid pay attention to my orchid over here. And so every time my writer is handing something in, in addition to the sort of theoretical, moving it forward, oh, they did that work that we gave them the note on.

Oh, they took into account that one thing. The studio kind of just threw off casually. But we all know is really the real note. That's really the serious note. because that's how it works at a studio is the, the person who sort of casually throws something out is actually, it's the thing they care the most about.

I'm, I'm ticking all those boxes, but I'm also saying like, how is this continuing to feel like a full on movie and not just a script? And I don't know if it's a little amorphous, but it's, it's the way certain scripts read. Like we read something two days ago that needs a lot of work, but it is totally a movie.

And it's so bizarre to say that, but like I, I was on that ride. I climbed in with that that character, and I felt all those bumps and curves, even though there was like a chunk missing and the, oh, they didn't even explore that. And oh god, that character disappeared, whatever. But in the scheme of what am I doing?

What am I going, what is this character needing and wanting, that's a movie and we felt that. So we're ready to show it to buyers even at this stage because it's declaring itself loud enough.

Jeff Graham: Sheila, it was so helpful for you to sort of frame the idea that your job is to continually convince the studio or streamer you're working with.

This is a movie, and not only that, but this is a valuable movie. But I think rewinding again, a little bit for our writers, including me what sort of are you seeing on the page to help convince you that this is a movie? What specifically from the writer really lets this stuff shine so you understand?

This is a movie, and I know that this is a writer, not only that I can work with, but that I'm excited to work with.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: You know, when I initially sit down with a writer and I'm trying to figure out if this is something that I wanna get into business on, and this is a writer I'm excited to work with, what I get energized by is when the writer's able to really articulate their intention behind this bigger story I need, if they can really explain to me why they wrote it, why this story speaks to them, why they hope it would either, you know, change the conversation or amplify the conversation.

It helps me know that even if the script needs work, that I have a, an end game that is aligned with their end game so I can give them notes in service of their intention. And to me that that's important because of this, this big thing that producers run into. We are listening to everything the studio needs or the streamer, right?

And they're a giant corporation. They have mandates, they have Monday morning staff meetings. They have numerous bosses who haven't been on set in years who are telling them exactly what they want in a product. So I'm filtering all this commercial business minded banking money minded thing into how to talk to an artist who has spent the last year crafting this beautiful little script and needs help guiding it so that at least it makes sense to the business people.

But it is still. Containing all the things that got the writer excited about it, and it still has the integrity of what I fell in love with. So for me, the thing again that gets me most excited is if the intention behind the script that the writer articulates is something that I know I can elevate to the most commercial version while still keeping it aligned with what the writer initially got excited by.

And one of the things I always remind people is if you aren't really clear on your intention yet, and you're talking to producers, it gets muddy really quickly because what happens is the producer is trying to drive it to the business model. So they start almost imposing their intent on the script or imposing their baggage.

And we talked about it at the top of the episode where if somebody's got some issues in the room and they're a powerful person in the room, they start putting that onto your script. And it's the recipe for disaster. So the, the firmer you are in understanding what you're hoping it does. And maybe it's not there yet, but at least you have a roadmap from all these helpful producers because they can align with you versus you having to align with them.

So help us see your vision and we can help get you there.

Meg LeFauve: Little side question. So many writers that I know run into a certain problem, and I want that the producer's view of this, this literally just happened to a friend of mine like two days ago.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: Okay.

Meg LeFauve: Where she went first to the producers, got some notes and she, they were just notes that she didn't necessarily agree with.

Not from story point of view, but literally make this more clear. Just put it in the dialogue. Just have them say it. Let's just use that as an example. Right? And you as a writer are like, really? Really, you want me to just do that? Take that thing out or make this that clear? Yep. That producer's.

Okay. And then you go to the studio and that's the note you get. Why it's two on the nose dialogue and where's this thing that you had in your producer draft? Ah, now this is not so, I know it's just human beings and everybody's taking their best guess, but I'd love to hear from a producer, how does that happen?

How can a writer address that? Can we, maybe we can't. I've had this happen to me too, where I've gotten completely steered, completely in the wrong direction by the producer, and then the whole thing dies. Right?

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: So that's an extreme situation, right?

Meg LeFauve: But what, what would be your view.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: This is tricky. You know, because I would like to think it doesn't happen very often in our world because we spend so many hours with our studio executives making sure we understand that we're all rowing in the same direction and we in theory, don't hopefully steer our writer off course.

But you're not wrong. I'm sure there have been cases where we have said, oh god, don't have that line in there. No, no, no, no. And then later the executive is but we need the line. And then this writer wants to say I knew it and the writer wants to be like, they talked me outta it. You, I mean, there's definitely that feeling for sure.

I, I, I actually advocate for the writer to say some version of that, be like, you know, we went back and forth on that so much and we really had a lot of conversations and where we landed was this, but I have a version that does this. Would you like to see it? I'm actually writer advocate in those kind of scenarios because of course they're trying to keep their job.

They don't wanna make anyone look stupid, but they kind of do because this, they got steered incorrectly and that's your worst nightmare. But I think there's a way to politically dance that dance and say acknowledge, you are right. We've definitely covered this. And we weren't sure because, and then if she, I mean, hopefully this writer, she can back it up and be like, because we, we weighed A, B, and C, but we also had to take into account X, Y, and Z.

And so we thought we'd try it this way, but clearly it didn't work for you.

Meg LeFauve: So, so when I was their executive, the, the writer was talking to the studio and they could have that conversation. So often now you don't even get to talk to the studio executive.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: Oh god, true.

Meg LeFauve: You're only talking to your producer.

Right. And you just are getting these notes coming down. Yes. And I just, I just wanna say, I think that that's so unfortunate because the bullseye isn't with the producer, the bullseye is with the studio executive. And I might be, be able to bond even better with that person. Yeah. That you know, so I just find that as problematic.

And I know that you as a producer don't, aren't threatened and would probably help them speak to the studio. And like you said, you are trying to make sure you know, your studio executive, but it can be an issue.

Jeff Graham: Sheila, do you feel like, in terms of what Meg is talking about, like it's almost like it's your job to speak the language of the studio so that if this is a situation where unfortunately the writer doesn't have access to the front lines, you can kind of be like the best translator possible to.

Build the puzzle that you need to build to get this movie done.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: We always tell new writers or up and coming directors when we first get to meet them. The weirdest thing about a studio producer that you probably don't imagine, because you've seen all the movies and you've seen all the sort of stereotypes, is actually studio producers.

Listen a lot. Our big thing is that we speak studio, meaning we're here to help you navigate this foreign country, which is making a movie in this giant corporation. So we're, we're there to help you find your way through all the steps, but we're listening to what the writer's intention is. We're listening to what the marketing department needs.

We're listening to what that executive is envisioning because they've been sitting in the big corporate staff meetings that we're not in and understand what the big, big bosses want. And then I have to turn around and, you know, hear what's going on in rehearsals and figure out what the actors are sort of searching for in order to really bring their best performance.

So all, all of those things are coming together and I am coordinating everyone's language and everyone's translation to make sure that they can all. Aim towards the same thing and still feel like they're doing the job that they're happy with and that they're satisfied by,

Jeff Graham: which is like so different than producing an indie movie.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: You know, when you get an indie producer and they have their director, maybe director, writer, they've got this team of brilliant artists coming together. Generally when they're going out to raise money, the the attitude is sort of like, Hey, we're making this important piece of art with something really valuable to say, and would you wanna come play with us?

Do you wanna invest with us? And that's the artwork that's coming together and the people who are investing it, that are buying in understand the bigger mission at hand versus a studio producer. We are running a business as our company and we are doing business with big corporations. So the game is sort of flipped, meaning.

I have a business to run and hey, writer, you have a project. It kind of feels like it would fit the mandate of this enormous broadcast corporation. They've got this business to run, they're gonna give us money, but your project has to sort of stick with that plan and stay in the guardrails. And if we can do that, we help them and their mission and their slate.

So we're kind of joining their party versus in the indie world, you're joining the Indie Filmmakers party.

Meg LeFauve: Okay. Let's talk about structure. Yeah. And the math of story, you know, final destination. These movies really heavily on structure. Yeah. They're engineered with such precision. Can you walk us through what that looked like on bloodlines in terms of, you know, set pieces on the page, the structure.

You still having to do theme and character structure, just especially with, you know, it's a sequels too. So how, how are you handling structure with, with this particular movie?

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: So with something like Final Destination Bloodlines, the crazy part is separate from it being part of a franchise and trying to service the fans, which obviously is, is dominates every conversation on every level.

But if we put that aside for a minute yeah. What you're saying is true, which is most people come up to me and say I love a final destination. I've got the greatest idea for a kill. And what they don't realize is like we can kill people all day long. Like we know how to do that. That is not the hard part.

The hard part is what you're talking about, which is coming up with a reason for a group of people to experience something really crazy within the first 10 minutes of the project that then goes haywire and then structurally building. In right there in that early 10 pages, what the lead character's like thing is or what their baggage is so that we can carry them through this series of crazy events and still chip away at what their issues are and rebuild them with a different mindset if possible.

Obviously if you're listening and you're a fan, you're gonna say but you kill everybody. How do they have time to rethink things? But I swear to god, if you look at it, we really do work to change people's attitude about something or people's belief about something they might get killed one second later.

Some of them get killed too soon and they haven't totally transition because we don't have time because we're killing people right away. But in the bigger math of it, we are applying like the general conceit of a story arc, even though we're killing everybody off every 10 pages essentially. So yeah. Yeah.

Meg LeFauve: You also have to make me care about these characters very fast. Yes. Because we're moving on to the fun and there's a lot of characters. Yes. And you have, but you have to care about them when they die. Or it just becomes kind of, you know, I don't know. Or do you, maybe I'm wrong. Tell me about that. How do you do it?

How do you do it?

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: I think you're not wrong. I think you're not wrong. I think one of the things we learned from this, this particular edition of them, number six, is that. We had been gun shy about doing a family for a long time because we felt like it was really the third rail. People would care too much and it would be really impossible to kill somebody successfully in these delicious, ridiculous ways that you're screaming back at the screen and then keep the movie moving along because you would normally, in a normal, in a regular story that isn't over the top, like these stop and mourn and talk about them or whatever.

So we, we said, all right, if we're gonna do this with family, people are gonna care more than ever. Because now there's, it's not just coworkers or not just kids on a school trip. They have years and years of history, but also years and years of pain and secrets and all the things that come with family. So how do we keep this thing in flying along and keeping the structure and the model of a final destination movie?

And where we landed, but believe me, it was through post, like it was a constant conversation was we couldn't go as creepy and as woo woo as the first one and the third one because that, that those were by nature a slower, more contemplative movie. And instead we had to keep it more ridiculous and more fun so that there wasn't any anyone asking Why are you not morning longer?

And we just got on the rollercoaster. But structurally it's still really intact. But we learned based on how well this movie's being received that. It worked in our advantage that they cared that much about the characters. In fact, people mention it a lot and it makes you go back and look at some of the other ones and be like, wow, maybe we weren't in service of those characters as much as we thought because everybody was sort of, of the agreement that we were all about the good kills.

And now we're realizing, you know, to use, to quote the brilliant Lindsay Duran, her whole thing is like, to make a great movie, whether it's a mystery or a romantic comedy or a thriller, you still have to make people laugh, people cry, people be thrilled. People have all of you need all those in any genre, it doesn't matter.

So for us to add a much more emotional through line for these characters has really literally and figuratively paid off.

Meg LeFauve: So how do you and working with different writers on all these different versions and, and, and as a producer working on other projects. Yeah. Just to open it up a little bit, have you noticed anything that particular writers do in introducing a character that immediately you care about them?

Is it that they have a problem? Is it that. You know, is it to save the cat? because you're you with that ensembles, boy, you gotta do it fast, right? Yeah. I gotta meet the character. I have to know who they are. I have to know so much just in their behavior. Right? Often these are the last scenes that you can find, right?

Because you don't even know them as a writer until you write it a lot of times. Do you have any insights into that in terms of what you've seen the great writers do

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: Fus when we have to do these big ensembles? Obviously it is, it is like a ridiculous math problem. The thing that we've realized is in introducing someone very efficiently and very quickly, we use the television pilot rule, which is, if you look at the excellent TV pilots, those characters show up, but they don't have a problem yet.

They don't have a lot going on yet. We just need to meet everybody at the workplace or meet everybody at the hospital, whatever it is. They all come in with a very clear point of view. So less about problem, more about attitude. I. Who is grumpy, who's energetic, who's seeming like the life of the party, who's coming in.

You can tell with something else on their mind and they walk in and if you've done it well, it's in one or two lines of dialogue like you're in and and that's a constant conversation we were having like years and years and years ago. I worked at the Fox TV lab forever and my co-teacher there is a woman named Kelly Col Check and she came up through some of the greatest writers' rooms ever.

And she was like going back to some of those benchmark TV shows that sort of started the change of excellent television. So if you look at things like Taxi or Cheers, when they were the pilots, they would walk in and have one line and you would know exactly who they were and what their world point of view was.

So for us, that's our rule of thumb.

Meg LeFauve: god, I love that. Now I wanna go back and study those pilots.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: Yes. I'm telling you…

Meg LeFauve: just because that line of dialogue.

Jeff Graham: I also noticed, Sheila, that like the convention of using a family to tie this story together. I think did a lot of work and provided shorthand for us as an audience as well.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: When we came into this movie in particular, our master plan early on was, and John Watts had this, so he came in and he was like, you know, the, the person who's been best at introducing families in his film Lexicon and he is a little younger than I am, is he grew up with all the Spielberg movies. And he said, you know, when you walk into a Spielberg house, it's always crazy.

There's like somebody using the blender, there's a golden retriever barking, there's somebody like racing around trying to find their basketball shoes. Like it's always a hectic, and he was like, if you can introduce us into that family in a spielbergian way, it just does everything we're talking about, which is they don't have to come in with a problem necessarily, but they do come in with a point of view.

In this case, we made missing Paco, the sort of the problem, which then allowed everybody to ping pong off each other. But then we had, you know, the old Western trope of a stranger arrives. because none of them have seen Stephanie in so long. So we gave them a point of view about her. Right away. And so in our math, every line was counting to like, and we barely trimmed that actually.

That was sort of how it unpacked from the day we shot it, to be honest. So I don't know if that's answering your question, but to me it was, it was all in that intro. The whole thing hinged on that, essentially.

Meg LeFauve: Okay. So, Jeff had another great insight in terms of the sugar that these movies have in them that's so delicious.

All the fun set pieces and how are we gonna kill people? And but you have to, of course, like we're talking about, still have emotional stakes. But is there any other advice you would give to somebody who wants to write this kind of fun sugar and yet still care about the characters or think about this, the theme?

Do you, do you have themes? Is it always the same theme? Let me ask it that way. Is it always the same theme? Is it always the same emotional arc because they're sequels. Or no?

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: No, definitely not. Like after we figure out what group of people can all be together and justify why they would be going on this journey and we're gonna throw all this stuff at them, the next thing we sort is who's our lead characters, what's their thing?

And each, each one of these movies, the lead is had sort of a different thing. So this one again, was the more complex of them all, but also in many ways the most sugary, most delicious one because we've all had some version of family trauma and we've all had some version of things we've shoved in a box and never talked about again, but we really should be talking about.

So for us, we had to decide how much we wanted to unpack that amidst killing everybody. So the real conversation was how deep can we go with the theme? How deep can we go with damage, but keep it fun and keep it silly and keep everybody screaming and yelling at the screen or whatnot.

Meg LeFauve:  And it's ultimately okay.

I have a quick question. Yeah. And maybe I'm wrong about this, but in my memory,

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: yeah.

Meg LeFauve: They're tragedies because, so, because they do, sorry, spoiler jump. 30 seconds. They do die, right? Yeah. Everybody dies. So in your, so in your mind, a tragedy, of course they don't learn their lesson

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: Right? It different in ours, meaning we treat it more like a, more of a superhero arc, meaning they, they sort it out as best they can as we head into act three.

And they are sort of reconciled with their new epiphany, reconciled with their new way of life. But what they cannot control is their fate, is their fate. And destiny is destiny. So we do our best to have our, our lead. Really get to the end of their new mindset and be ready to embark on that journey. And then they just get killed.

because that's where death has shown up in their li in their timeline. However, if death had gotten derailed again, our character would be healed and heading on to exist sort of with a new outlook. Right.

Meg LeFauve: Right. So fascinating.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: Yeah. So it's a very, very tricky…

Meg LeFauve:  that's tricky because you're That's so good. That's so good.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: And what we have to do, because as you know, when you build these sort of stories, like in many ways the best sort of coming of age tales or, you know, epiphany tales are by the end of act two, if there's a big thing they still have to fight or climb or what fend off by the end of act two, they have to have sorted their own baggage out.

They have to have their own shit sorted so that they can head into act three, sort of clean and pure and ready to do the thing. And that is what we had to do. And when they go into act three to do and feel the thing, they still get killed. Which is crazy. That's crazy. I mean, that's how they worked.

Meg LeFauve: Yeah.

It's kind of like breaking but then reinventing.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: Yeah. Yeah. And, and in particular with this one, just to add more to the, the sauce is, and this is out there in other podcasts a little bit, but we can take a second, unpack it. The original version of this movie, the mom character, played by R Stet, her name is Darlene.

In the movie Darlene had been estranged from the family. She's come home because of these funerals that are happening and they don't want anything to do with her because she took off. So now that she's back, really the bigger through line was, Hey, we need to repair the family even though they're all skeptical.

So that's how we're going to integrate Ria and Darlene into this story. And as our characters are dying more and more, they're rebuffing her more and more. And then slowly realized the reason she left was because she thought she had the curse with her. And now the curse has shown up whether she was there or not.

So now they're apologizing, they're bringing her back into the fold. And in the original version, she died way earlier in the movie. She died after. If you've seen the movie, spoiler alert. Otherwise, jump ahead after the two boys die in the hospital. When she and the, the her two kids walk outta the hospital thinking, whew, that was awful, but we're gonna go sort of do our own thing now.

She died right at the hospital. Mm-hmm. And what we realized very early was. As fun as that kill was, and it was a good one. It was one of our favorites and it'll, it'll maybe be on some version of whatever DVD out outtakes exist in today's world. But what happened was really quickly we were like, wow, we haven't given the mom and those kids enough time to enjoy this reconciliation.

As we're talking in terms of thematic, because she just got her way back in with these kids and they are just starting to trust her. And as fun as this kill was, the reality is we need 10 more minutes with them to believe that this is solid and to believe that it's credible and they're really actually together again.

So, just in case we weren't positive about it, we had a focus group where a few people for real raised their hands and said I had a deadbeat mom. She came back into our lives. You can't kill the mom at the hospital. You can't. We need, you need so good. And everybody listened, which was really helpful.

You know, sometimes you aren't in a situation where everybody listens, they just go, nah, it's more about the kills or whatever. But in this case, people listened and. We did extremely like very extreme strategic additional photography. It wasn't even a reshoot. We didn't fix anything. We added the mom through the last 10 minutes of the movie.

We suddenly put her with those two kids on this adventure and killed her 12 minutes later or whatever it was. And that was enough time for everyone to believe that they were together and that it was earned.

Meg LeFauve: I love that. So then the speeding heart of the deadbeat mom is so, it's such a powerful, powerful thing to have in the center of the sugar.

I just love that so much. Okay. I think this was at the hospital. I wanna talk about rules of the world, especially with sequels now, right? Because what I found interesting was you of course have to have clarity of rules and they have to be consistent. And yet you also have to surprise, right, the audience because the rules can't just be like ab B, ab, ab b, ab.

And it seemed to me the way you guys did that in this movie was that Eric's. Not supposed to get killed rule wise, but then he does because he was helping somebody. So it just felt like this beautiful way to keep your rules intact and yet find a new twist on them. So can you talk a little bit about this is impaled on the wheelchair, I think Believe, sorry.

Yes. Yes. But you know, that's just, sorry people, but it's so crazy. Okay. So, can you just talk a little bit about rules of a world and as working with writers and that clarity and that surprise.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: Yes. So when we are looking at how to lay out rules for a horror movie we have to do that very early so that when we are brainstorming, we can always say, oh, no, no, that, that we're gonna get derailed.

because it doesn't match this set of rules. But as you're growing a franchise, obviously you need to let the list expand a little bit. because otherwise, like you said, we're gonna have a, the same movie over and over again. So what we were able to do with this one is, so our writers, Lori Co Shell Taylor, and guide Busick, they had the fake kill for Eric in from the beginning.

They were smart enough to say, this is a way we can keep the rules, but subvert the rules because everyone's expecting everyone to die. Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom. So if we can keep one character alive, it puts everybody back on their heels a little bit. Now they have to watch a little more closely.

Yet we haven't done anything that is takes the story off the, the, the list that everyone's loves and comes back for time and time again. So as we're building out the, this particular franchise, I mean as a, as a side note, we have a probably a 30 page Excel spreadsheet with all of the ways we've killed people in the past, all the ways we've tried and those scenes have gotten thrown out.

We have a list of everything. So if you're ever in our orbit, you get handed this sort of dossier on, on the playbook, right? Because in that way we are sort of like showrunners in the bigger scheme of things. because we are writer brained. We're not gathering money for these movies. We're trying to kill people really well, but have you care about them.

But when we're sitting down with a bunch of writers, the way we did it with this project was, the original version of this is there's a really cool director writer named John Watts who did all the, a lot of the Spider-Man movies and some other really fun things. He is a super fan. So he came to us and said, have you ever done a family, a family tree?

And we said, well, we've talked about it, but it's really touchy because you might care too much and it'll derail the movie, but let's give it a shot. So he initially wrote like a six page outline. Of what he saw a family tree version looking which is why he gets story by credit in the, in the actual movie.

So then we didn't have screenwriters yet, and we did not have directors yet. We just had a six page outline and we decided to treat this like a TV room as opposed to a feature. And we brought together, I think it was eight or nine of the sort of horror MVPs that are in Hollywood right now and had a day of just brainstorming off that six pages.

And, and by the way, we went down all these hilarious rabbit holes. We came up with ideas of what if somebody was a sperm donor? What if somebody was a twin? What if we did tons of that stuff and in that more rules were explored and then killed off because we were, we were pretty sure where our fans live in terms of loving the rules versus, oh, no, no, that just took me outta the movie and, and if you're a fan of the whole franchise, you can look back.

There's a, there's sort of a rule in the second one that's sort of disappeared now because. It just got too many backflow. It was too complicated to keep up, which was like trade a life for a life and this and that. And we kind of mentioned it briefly here, but for a joke as opposed to trying to actually capitalize on it, right?

So weirdly, if you look at our list of rules, the rule, the playbook that we operated by, I know this has taken really long to get to this point, but if you look at our list of rules in the playbook we operate by is we try to keep it really brief and really simple and it's character led. So if you look at some of the earlier movies, like some of those kids are, they're, you know, they're like assholes and we kill them in a way an asshole deserves.

So that's part of the rule book. And then other worlds are like, there's no mother nature. This has to be all caused by hubris. And then something weird has to happen and we all kind of thrive on something weird has to happen. And that gets harder and harder as we've done six of them now. Like how many times can you have electricity and water meat?

How many times can you have an air vent flip open? You know? So it's gotten more and more challenging. So if we stick to the simplest list of rules, it helps us make another one.

Meg LeFauve: I love that. Okay. Okay, let's talk tone. Yeah. Okay. Because as you know, all writers, but especially emerging writers, tone is just this amorphous, what is it?

How do you describe it? So first I would like you to describe what tone means to you. When somebody says the word, what's the tone of your movie? What does that mean to you as a creative? Because you're an incredible creative and as a producer. And then how did you do the tone of this movie because it's so specific.

Like how, what are the elements of getting that tone? So two part question. Talk begin.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: So when I think about tone, there's sort of two or three things that really are on my mind front and center. First of all, just in terms of how the prose is reading on the page, or how the characters, what their attitude is about the situation.

It's how it's making me feel. So does it make me feel uncomfortable? Does it make me feel like we're going on a ride? Does it make me feel suspicious? All of that to me is tone, and sometimes it's captured just in the way the syntax is unpacked. And again, sometimes it's supported even more by how a character's being approached to the situation is, but.

It's sort of like, I know you can't smell what's happening in the room when you're reading a script, but like to me it's like how does it smell? How does it feel if I was putting on a warm sweater or am I like getting that sweater off me because it's too itchy? All of that is what I'm looking for with tone.

And I know that feels very strange way to describe it, but that is number one. And then number two, for me, the hardest thing honestly is any script. Doesn't matter who you are, if it's consistent throughout, and that's the trickiest name of the game, right? Is like you can have some crazy opening sequence that you're like, all right, I know what this is.

I got this. And then 20 pages later I'm like, wow, we've totally lost sight of that. It's not silly anymore. It's not rollicking anymore. Now I just learned she's a drunk. What's happening that doesn't fit? I don't get it. So it's, it's also about, sure you can have a character who's a drunk in a funny movie if you thread it right, but you just have to continually check on that tone.

Is your, is your reader still feeling like they're in the same car on the same ride as they were from beginning to end? So it's consistency and it's just how you want someone to take away that emotion and how they, you want it to feel. And for me it's, it's, it's truly in the pros and in the characters.

Every word choice matters at that point.

Meg LeFauve: What about for this movie? How did you maintain that tone of the delight of the kills and yet I still have to care and Yeah. How did you do it?

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: So first of all, it was a constant conversation because of how, how buoyant we needed this particular version to be because we were killing family.

So there was a constant, I. Goal by all of us that the best kill, the best way to do it would be that you would want to cover your eyes and be horrified, but be laughing at the same time. So that was, that was our benchmark and that was a shorthand that would help everybody understand what we were going for.

Because we've all been in my like, oh my god, bud, look, I can't, you know, it's a great vibe. And then honestly it was a big shout out to our cast because we were fortunate enough the way we built our prep schedule. And this is taking the seven month pause out of the equation. because we had a giant pause, which allowed us to really rethink and really regroup everything.

So that's like a whole nother podcast about the, the beauty of taking your time and building a movie. Us and Minecraft both shut down seven days. We were supposed to start shooting and I think both of us benefited greatly from the pause, even though financially it was a giant train wreck. But when we did get our cast all together, we had.

Roughly a week of of rehearsal slash family bonding process where they all got to know each other and got to trust each other and got to mess around with each other, but simultaneously share stories. I have a sister who I haven't talked to in 10 years. I have a crazy dad. I have an aunt who's a drunk.

All of this stuff came together in a way that allowed them to laugh and cry about real life constantly. So as we were building these moments, like if you're watching this movie, someone dying in an MRI machine should not be funny, but for some reason, the way it unpacks itself, it totally works and is like ridiculous and you're laughing and crying and screaming and all the things.

So a lot of that was our cast's attitude going into that scene. Hmm. So it's, it's a mix of things, but we, it was a constant conversation through post, like there was little teeny things we added in post. We went back through dailies and found a funnier line to oh, we are having a very serious conversation about the book and about Iris and about everyone dying.

We need a little joke right here. Or Oh, we're having a moment where they're joking too much. We need somebody to ask a serious question to get us back on point. So if you watch the movie again now…

Meg LeFauve: but now Yeah. That's so interesting. because now the other thing about all these of the different sequels is they all have different directors.

Yeah. And directors bring tone as well. Yes. So it is more like a TV show because you're kind of asking that director to follow the tone. They can make it their own.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: Yes. Yeah. And that's where, that's where I say like Craig and I are more like showrunners. Meaning if you look at the constant, it's us and these directors are coming to this great party that we, we've been throwing for 25 years and they can definitely bring their special sauce.

because if you watch them. So one and three were the same directing team. So it was Morgan and Wong who came up through XFiles and they're through 21 Jump Street. And I think there's XFiles vibe all over those first, those one and three like for sure. And then David Ellis, who's a former stunt man, did number two and then went off and did Cellular with Kim Bassinger and William H.

Mason, a few other things. And then came back and did four, and I think two and four actually are different. And it's interesting, he chose a different tone for both, I would argue. And then five was a guy named Steve Quail who came up through the Jim Cameron, the James Cameron universe. He's part of the team that created those initial 3D cameras and stuff like that.

He's much more of a technician and much more of a sort of a slow, sophisticated filmmaker move. So if you watch it, he did bring his own fingerprints to it, no question. It feels very different yet with Craig and I there sort of minding the shop there, there's still a good laugh here and there, there's still a cover your eyes, but scream at the, at the screen kind of thing, so, so yeah, we all had to work in tandem.

As a, you know, as a, as a collaborative group, to have the dialogue about how do we kill them and still make it funny, or how do we kill them and make 'em deserve it?

Meg LeFauve: Which is so important for writers to understand in that your tone has to be very, very clear on the page because it's gonna move into so many different hands.

Right. And it will evolve because the director of course, will bring their own twist on it. But you have to set that baseline. Yeah. I wanna make sure to ask you two questions before we have to end. The first one is, as a producer, what kind of catches your eye when you're reading a script? Or what would you say?

I mean, it's a crowded field, like you said, we've got a lot of emerging writers here. What, is there a kind of, anything that you as a producer can give advice in terms of is there even just craft level or what grabs your attention or anything you would wanna impart to them about that?

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: The biggest thing that is catching my eye lately as I'm reading right now, a ton of scripts is for me, the size of the story has nothing to do with it these days because obviously there's a place to get your million dollar movie made and there's a place to get your a hundred million dollar movie made.

So it's not, it's not that version of sort of choices, but a writer's making. But, but weirdly, I would use the phrase like, you still need to make a big splash. So even though it's for a, a movie, you and your 10 friends are gonna make this summer with your own camera in your backyard. Are you taking a big swing on what this character is gonna deal with and what they're doing, and what they're thinking about things, and how you're gonna either change that or support that greatly and get everybody else to come around and see their point of view?

I mean, everything I read today, everything has to be like, how are we gonna deliver the point of view? Because again, there's too much out there. There's too much noise out there. So the way that we're getting anybody to say yes to anything in terms of directors or actors is like, what's that point of view?

Are you taking a big swing on this crazy thing that they've gotta deal with? Or are you delivering something that we haven't seen before? And I think that's way harder. That's a needle in a haystack. So for me, the thing that I can guarantee you as a writer are controlling much more clearly is what's my big swing?

Why does this character need to have this thing thrown at them?

Meg LeFauve: And give a, give an example of a big swing just in case for people who maybe aren't un really knowing what that means, it's okay.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: So I, okay here, here's one. I just was reading the other day because I thought it was wild. So I'm reading what I think is like your typical serial killer at a campsite movie.

Like we've read 900 of those. So we had to do the quick introductions and meet everybody and get in three lines what their attitude and their point of view was. Everyone's setting up tents, everyone's bickering. You meet the creepy guy who's the one you sign in with at the campsite. So of course he's the suspicious one.

But that's, we know it's the red herring. We meet another guy who's a little weird, but he's got a kid with him, so maybe he's not such a problem. You know, we, it's all this sort of standard trope, so you're like, oh my god, here we go. I'm, I'm gonna get to page 40 and then I, I can close it because what, what's new, what's fresh, what's happening?

And we get to a point at like page 28 or 29. So for me that's generally sort of organically the end of act one. As we're getting into what would be sort of the act two, and there is a giant twist behind who is why they're there and who's doing what. And suddenly I'm like, oh, this isn't a serial killer at a campsite after all.

Huh? Shoot. I was just about to close this. Now I've gotta finish it. So it was, it was literally like, oh, don't save your twist till page 70. What would happen if you put your twist at page 28 and had an entirely new world and a new paradigm for the reader to regroup and, and see a whole new movie unpack itself.

And this, this writer pulled it off. And the, and the one trick was if you move your twist that early, you do still need a great one at 70 again or another. Another layer, which this one did, but more importantly, they're running into something that we actually ran into in final destination. As well as you've now spent 28 pages setting up a world that if you have a big twist that early, you have to then reset up the world again.

You have to tell us what the new rules are and the new foundation is. So you have to do it efficiently and expertly and sort of use whatever pieces you can from the first bit to like just bolster the next bit, right? But again, this writer did it, so she took a big swing, and I'm telling you, she intended it to be one of those like $2 million, shoot with your friends in the woods kind of thing.

And all of a sudden I'm like. Or not like, or, or all of a sudden this film, like it could be an 8 24 or like a Blumhouse, slightly bigger budget, you know? And, and she might wanna direct, she's got enough credits, she could maybe do it. But on the flip side, now it's sort of, oh, there's a sexy enough twist.

Like some other directors would probably read this, so let's see what happens. But I don't know if that is…

Meg LeFauve: Oh, there's the big, there's the big choice coming for that writer director. Oh my god. It always comes. The script's too good now. They want a different director. Yeah.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: Oh my god. But that's, but by the way, that's the producer's job.

So one of the big things when I'm, you know, working as a producer, if we are in that boat where we have a great writer, director with a size script, that their resume and their credits can actually sustain and could, and they're good. And we know a right and an actor would fall in love with them if the actor got access to them.

And all the things you need for a director to present is somebody that you wanna go on this two year journey with. Then the thing we ask them as early as possible, literally as early as possible, is exactly that meaning. If they come back to you and ask about a different director, what's your, what's your line like?

What's your point? Is it, do you take, are you good with that? Or is this a no way I'm directing this? No one else can ever touch it. This is my idea. Or is it, yeah, cool. Here's my number. This is what, this is the amount it's gonna take to buy me out, or this is the credit I want, or whatever. And so weave, have that conversation super early so that it's not at midnight when the offer has just come from somebody and everyone is like freaking out and there's pressure and there's lawyers.

It's oh, no, no. We had this conversation six months ago. We know exactly where they stand.

Meg LeFauve: That's so smart. Here's so they're in such good hands with you. Okay. My last question before our final three questions is, you're working with so many writers over so many years and looking back at that, what kind of makes.

A great creative relationship. Or another way to ask it is, what are the red flags that you're like, this is not going to be a great creative relationship for writers coming in to work with a producer. Of course we have to be ourselves and all of that. But what, what are some tips you would have for that relationship in the process you're gonna go through?

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: My god, this is such a good question because we do have some really old friends who we love to work with. We lovingly refer to them as our repeat customers that we, we constantly like to hang out with. You know, one of the biggest things, I think, honestly is, is, and you, Meg, you and I have talked about this for years with your husband Joe as well, but like the, the producers that you wanna work with, as if you're a writer and you're sitting down and you're, you know, everyone tells you you gotta get a producer.

They're gonna help. They're gonna help. But sometimes they're the wrong producer. And the way you can figure it out for me is the questions I always ask are sort of geared around the script. Meaning what's your favorite scene? Is there a character you love? Is there a moment that really spoke to you?

Because soon you'll unpack like what they latched onto and what they love. So first of all, if you're trying to hunt for a producer, don't just take any old guy. Pick somebody who like loves the movie the way you love that movie and has a vision for the movie the way you do. So that there's that. But from a producer's point of view, the the things that spark my interest and the things that get me excited is the fact that they are treating you like a collaborator as opposed to this person who's in service of them.

And you know, most people do not understand what producers do. So they expect that we're gonna go out and raise the money and fight with the studio and slay the dragons. And I'm like, yeah, we do that. But that's 2%. The other version is not fighting with the studio. The other version is like climbing in with the studio and figuring out what these executives all need.

Who, by the way, in today's climate, at every studio, everyone's just trying to figure out how to not get fired. So every note that's coming outta their mouth, whether they believe it or not, is literally in service of keeping their job. So we are all just trying to stay employed. We're all just trying to get a movie made that we can all be proud of, that we all love and we know at every point we're gonna have to take all these sort of, you know, second choices because of money or because of time, or because some crazy note from some very high up executive is asking for something and you're like, really?

Okay, we'll figure it out. We've got a team of 200 incredibly smart people who will sort this, whether we all agree with it or not. And so knowing that the writer is there to be like, okay, I'll hands in. We're doing this as opposed to like. So the producer wasn't really helpful or the producer wasn't fighting.

So I don't know if I'm answering the question well enough.

Meg LeFauve: You are, you are. No, that's great for when you get to the part of we're gonna make this movie. But how about the develop, how about in the development process? Yeah. What do writers do that you're like, Ugh, I don't wanna work with this person again.

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: So, okay, so in the, in early in the development process, there's the easy ones, there's the easy questions. When a writer, you think to yourself, oh no, this is not gonna work. One of my favorite moments ever very famous author, like wildly famous, like household name, famous author, we all worshiped this author when we were in college was now has transitioned to screenwriting.

I have the privilege of one of the first screenplays this guy's written. I I am desperately trying to figure out what the through line thematic is that we're unpacking. And I get on the phone with this award-winning gajillionaire writer who's living in their crazy New York City penthouse with a view.

And I say, so what's, what is, what's the theme that we're trying to sort of support here? The theme that we're trying to unpack? And he goes, ha, I don't know, Sheila, you got me. And I was like, oh my god. So that's the simple one. Know what you're writing, know what, what you care about. And sometimes early on, again, we talked earlier about like the devil on your shoulder.

And at this point you shouldn't worry about the studio, you shouldn't worry about the audience. But on the flip side, I would love it if very early on I sat down with the writer and they knew what they wanted the takeaway to be and they knew how. They were hoping to either change the conversation or enhance the conversation.

And early on, so many writers get so, and I don't blame them, they get so bogged down with just trying to figure out if the dialogue's any good or you know, I got notes from four different people and I tried to make the scene better. And like you're worried about all of that. But sometimes you forget like this is a piece of art.

Hopefully you're hoping to make people think. Again, to change or switch up the conversation. And so if you're writing in service of that, sometimes that can work for you On the days where you don't have the dialogue figured out or you aren't quite sure if the scene should happen at a bar or the scene should happen at a coffee shop or at a church, you're sorting that out.

But if it's in service of what the takeaway is, suddenly I'm like, my writer at least has do North figured out and we can sort the little stuff because at the end of the day, whether it's a church or coffee shop isn't as vital as staying on track. Right. So that's, that's part of what I look for. And then one of the other things that's weird is, and this happens all the time, is so many film schools.

So many writing programs, program writers, that this is like their precious nugget of gold, you know, and that, and they teach them that they've gotta sort of stick the course and fight for what's right and their vision and all these things. And believe me, I'm the first one to say that Hollywood does not take good care of writers.

So I'm not saying that we are the, the people who nurture writers well at all, but I would argue that when you are in, in the position. Early in your career to even start talking to people who might help you get your script out there, whether it's an agent or a manager or a producer, whoever it is. The, the idea that you have to hang on to your precious ring like Gollum is really unsettling to this group of people who are here to not only help you, but who have most likely been doing it longer.

So one of my other red flags is wow, that writer's really pushing back on that. And there's a big difference between believing in your project and why it has to be that way and being like, this more senior person is showing me the, the, the path through the forest and maybe we should just try it for a minute.

And, and we always know we had that version and you'd be amazed how many producers for sure oh, we have that version. Wait, we might need that version now. Time to bring that version up. But we had to fix four other things before that version even made sense. Let's play a little and when these writers are like, I don't play, this is my thing, then I run for the hills.

So that's another, that's another one. Trying to think what else throws me off. Those are the two biggest ones.

Meg LeFauve: Those, they're big. No, those are two really, really good ones I love. Okay. I think those are really, really important. Alright, well as always could talk to you forever and of course I'm sure we'll have you back.

So, we're gonna ask you the, the three questions and we'll see. Now you've, you're, you're, you're a returning guest, so perhaps these will change. Oh, now we might change. So what brings you the most joy when you produce?

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: From when I am producing, the thing that makes me the happiest is, is figuring out with the actors.

And I know most people think this is a director's job, but in my space, I started as an actor. I was a, I was in commercials when I was like eight, nine years old. I've been on screen Actors Guild for 55 years, like forever. So for me, my favorite thing is. We've spent all this time on a script, finally.

Then having those actors show up and sitting in wardrobe with them and watching them pick which pair of glasses to wear and why that purse makes sense and all that, and suddenly it's all real. So for me, that's probably one of my most favorite things.

Meg LeFauve: I love that. Okay. What pisses you off about producing?

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: I think the hardest thing for me that pisses me off is this balance that we're always up against, which is time and money. And when you're making studio movies, you know, a big part of my job is listening to where the studio's line is in terms of there's no more money. And I know you're a giant corporation, but there's still no more money for this, because they've run all these crazy metrics and understand what the long game is in terms of where the payout is and how it's all gonna work.

So I have to constantly say, all right, there's still no more money. And that way it's like an indie movie. So all these people who think I'm working for a giant corporation do not understand that I have a budget that we can't change, and instead we have to get incredibly creative on how this emotional moment in the scene can get shot without all the crazy bells and whistles.

Meg LeFauve: Good, good

Okay. If you could have a coffee with your younger self, your younger Sheila, what advice would you give her?

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: I would tell the younger Sheila three things. I would tell the younger Sheila to meet more agents and managers because they control the directors and the actors in this town, and you don't get anything made without a name.

And I would tell the younger Sheila to take up way more room in the room because it's, especially in features, it's, it's usually me and 15 men and it's a really interesting balance. And the last thing I would tell me, aside from taking up more room would also be. To figure out ways to make suggestions that remind everybody we're all rowing in the same direction.

Those are so good.

Meg LeFauve: We all need to take that advice. All of us. Sheila, thank you so much for coming on the show as always. So insightful, so caring, so smart. Oh my god. But these,

Sheila Hanahan Taylor: Thank you for having me, Meg. 

Meg LeFauve: Oh my god. It's always amazing. I just love your brain so much. And to everyone else, Final Destination: Bloodlines is out in theaters.

It's such a fun ride, great structure, great characters, great tone. Check it out. And remember, you are not alone and keep writing.